Two-Hand-Operated Locking Knife for the German market

[teelicht]

If the entire blade is submerged below the handle, and there is no flipper, how would one access the blade? Even with two hands?

Submerge the blade but let the upper third/quarter of the hole free. Just enough to grab the hole like a nail nick.

 

[dirk_s]

What knife is it that has a Feststellungsbescheid and how does one get one? Is that the only German legal THO?

Almost any knife can be grabbed by the blade and snap the handle down to open, I can do that with a Swiss Army Knife. How would one get around that? Also, almost any locking knife can be inertia opened. How do we get around that?

For a Feststellungsbescheid you have to contact the BKA (=> kind of a German FBI) directly and send them the finished knife. I don't think that you will get one with only the drawings, I guess minimum is a prototype. Here is a link to the english version of the website: http://www.bka.de/EN/Home/homepage__node.html?__nnn=true
There is contact link on the page, please ask how the whole process works directly (you have a lawyer that can do this for you? Or a German distributor you are working with that can help you?).

About the two handed opening: I can not throw the blade open on e.g. slip joints with a strong spring or when the pivot screw is tightened so much that gravity and a "throwing" move is not enough. Maybe you can make the spring of the back lock extremely strong in the closed position so that you can't throw it open...


Edit: Here are two Feststellungsbescheide: http://www.bka.de/nn_205626/SharedD...f/121001FbZ269PohlForceFoxtrottTwoOutdoor.pdf
Verdict: You can flick this knife open easily with one hand => It is a one hand locking knife
http://www.bka.de/nn_205626/SharedD...20719FbZ238MesserRealityBasedBladeOutdoor.pdf
Verdict: You need two hands to open it => It is a two hand locking knife (here is a link to the broker website where you can see it closed: http://www.boker.de/taschenmesser/boeker-plus/innovative-taschenmesser/01BO046.html)

 

[MojoMC]

What knife is it that has a Feststellungsbescheid and how does one get one? Is that the only German legal THO?

The Feststellungsbescheid

The Feststellungsbescheid is an official document, issued by the Bundeskriminalamt (BKA, Federal Criminal Police Office).
Upon request they will review a knife (or a weapon or a weapon-like thing) and they determine what it is: A legal weapon, an illegal weapon, no weapon at all, a one-hand-knife or a two-hand-knife,...

Examples for knives can be downloaded here:
http://www.bka.de/nn_205618/DE/Them...tellungsbescheideMesser__node.html?__nnn=true
Several Feststellungsbescheide exist for knives made by renowned german manufacturers.

The results vary, depending on the knife, from "Two-hand-knife? You wish! It's a one-hand-knife!" to "Neither a weapon nor a one-hand-knife, it's a normal two-handed utility knife.

Sometimes they even say "Are you kidding us? That's so obviously NOT a one-hand-knife and NOT a weapon that we won't even review it." (Link to the manufacturers homepage for this knife).

Almost any knife can be grabbed by the blade and snap the handle down to open, I can do that with a Swiss Army Knife. How would one get around that? Also, almost any locking knife can be inertia opened. How do we get around that?

IANAL, but a Feststellungsbescheid would be at least SOME form of legal certainty and definitely give me some peace of mind.

/edit
Indeed it seems that only these 2 knifes (apart from cheap crap & fantasy stuff) were tested in recent years:
- Böker Plus Reality-Based Blade Outdoor, tested on behalf of the LKA Berlin. Result: No weapon, no one-hand-knife
- Pohl Force Foxtrott Two Outdoor, tested on behalf of the company. Result: No weapon, but despite the (gigantic) nail nick a one-hand-knife.

Not tested was the Pohl Force Bravo One Outdoor (link to Gen2).
But for Gen1 of this knife (D2 blade, without a nail nick!) there is a response from the BKA that they will not test it because it is obviously neither a weapon nor a one-hand-knife.

 

[porcupine]

Having seen the drawings above I must say that neither one really kicks me.
Just a Suggestion: Years ago Spyderco had a collab with german knifemaker Peter Herbst. I really liked that design. It is a cutie with perfect edc size. So why not revive this german design as a german legal two hand slipit? (as far as another collab is possible) I even would appreciate the almite handles.

 

[bad pucki]

Hi Sal,
is the THO 3 the final design or are there any other variations in planing?
When can I finally buy my first THO?
I can not wait!
:teuflisch

 

[kimbertom]

do we have a knife, or don´t we?!

please, please take a tenacious or an endura, give it a german legal bladeshape, work things out with the german bka to get a feststellungsbescheid for the knife, and then go for it. maybe it´s not entirely as simple as that, and i think it´s really great that spyderco wants to listen to what the customers in europe need, but democracy in the design process is really not a good thing.

in the end it comes down to a very simple question: do we have a knife, or don´t we?! is it endless discussion about a project what we want, or do we want to hold the knife in our hands? and when we have a knife, it may evolve over the years, like many other spyderco knives do. but evolution needs a point from where it can start.

dear mr. glesser, thanks for the effort, and if you want to make us entirely happy, give the knife a variety or colors for the handle scales...

best regards,
kimbertom

 

[bad pucki]

Hello all,

I think Sal should take 5 till 10 famous Spyderco knives/designs and than make a vote with it.
The knife/design with the most votes should be the base of the finally THO.
What do you think about it?

best regards
Pucki

 

[MojoMC]

The knife/design with the most votes should be the base of the finally THO.

I think this thread shows that designing a true & good two-hand-knife is not as easy as taking an established one-hand design and just omitting the spyderhole (which isn't an option anyway)...

 

[kimbertom]

what we need is a german legal blade

the german legal spyderco needs a german legal blade. we don´t need a special german legal knife. there are so many outstanding spyderco knife designs that are both practical and cool. it is possible to design a blade for two hand opening only and yet looking like a real spyderco blade. and if the design fits, it goes for almost any spyderco knife. i´d really like to see an endura (in different colors) with this blade, or a tenacious.... why make things more complicated than they are? why have only ONE german legal spyderco? what´s the problem?!

 

[J03]

AW: what we need is a german legal blade

why have only ONE german legal spyderco? what´s the problem?!

I guess the problem with that is, that germany is not the primary market for Spyderco. Producing a lot of blades just for one specific market (that is not even that big, I guess) would be noneconomic.

 

[teelicht]

Can the new Spyderco Positron be opened without the flipper?

If not, just cut off the flipper and the THO for the German marked is ready to ship...

 

[Sal]

Hi all,

I back in town after much overseas traveling. I still have the Blade Magazine show this weekend. but then I get to do some designing.

I have thought a great deal about solving this problem. It is far more complicated than might appear. The major problem is that just about any locking knife can be opened with inertia. Inertia opening is "one hand opening". In order to make the knife with such a strong spring, so that it cannot be inertia opened, it becomes difficult to open, even with two hands unless there is a long leverage arm to overcome the spring tension. That's why I put the "double dent" at the tip of the first design. (in order to have enough leverage to overcome a strong spring). However, the "look" of the double dent at the tip was a deal breaker so I'm still trying to figure out a way to easily open the knife with two hands.

Your thoughts are helpful, but some of the suggestions do not solve the "inertia opening" issue.

We have built some Linerlocks and compression locks with very strong detents so they could not be inertia opened, but still one hand opened (for Australia), but they were challenging to dial in. Part of the solution is making the blade light enough to assist in the non inertia opening issue. I'm not the type to give up so I'm still working on it.

As I remember, we sent some samples to Peter to show the problems with the last time we made German samples.

sal

 

[Sal]

AW: what we need is a german legal blade

I guess the problem with that is, that germany is not the primary market for Spyderco. Producing a lot of blades just for one specific market (that is not even that big, I guess) would be noneconomic.

Once we find a way that works, we can make as many models as the German market will take. We make a number of models for Denmark to meet there strict laws (SpyDK & Pingo)

sal

 

[polaris1977]

Your thoughts are helpful, but some of the suggestions do not solve the "inertia opening" issue.

I think you're right, but it is very difficult to understand this Problem for a normal thinking person. Ther are alway repeated discussions about that measure in this forum, expecially when nubes ask for "two hand openers".

 

[Peter1960]

As I remember, we sent some samples to Peter to show the problems with the last time we made German samples.

Not to my address; maybe to the other Peter, Peter Fronteddu

 

[porcupine]

Hmmm, "gut Ding will Weile haben", as we say (good things need time).
Whatever will come, I'm looking forward to it.
And as Plans stay in Progress, just another "Idea": Since a few months I carry a Spy-DK as edc, interchanging with the Pingo, just how I'm in the mood. I live close to DK
The handle of the Spy-DK might be able to carry a 5-6 mm longer blade. So why not give this typical Spyderco-Style Handle a blade that is a bit longer, a bit bulkier at the edge and maybe even at the Spine. That might save Time and Effort to create a new handle.

 

[teelicht]

The major problem is that just about any locking knife can be opened with inertia. Inertia opening is "one hand opening". In order to make the knife with such a strong spring, so that it cannot be inertia opened, it becomes difficult to open, even with two hands unless there is a long leverage arm to overcome the spring tension.

Does it really need a strong spring? What if there is only a small area where you can pinch the blade right next to the pivot?

Just take one of the Southard-models, remove the flipper and submerge the blade so that only the upper part of the hole works as a nail nick. The Positron is pretty close to what I mean, can you open it one-handed without the flipper?

 

[Sal]

Not to my address; maybe to the other Peter, Peter Fronteddu

Hi Peter,

I'll have to chase it down.

sal

 

[Sal]

Hmmm, "gut Ding will Weile haben", as we say (good things need time).
Whatever will come, I'm looking forward to it.
And as Plans stay in Progress, just another "Idea": Since a few months I carry a Spy-DK as edc, interchanging with the Pingo, just how I'm in the mood. I live close to DK
The handle of the Spy-DK might be able to carry a 5-6 mm longer blade. So why not give this typical Spyderco-Style Handle a blade that is a bit longer, a bit bulkier at the edge and maybe even at the Spine. That might save Time and Effort to create a new handle.

Hi Porcupine,

The SpyDK tooling is for a slip-joint. It wouid have to be changed to add a lock.

sal

 

[Sal]

Does it really need a strong spring? What if there is only a small area where you can pinch the blade right next to the pivot?

Just take one of the Southard-models, remove the flipper and submerge the blade so that only the upper part of the hole works as a nail nick. The Positron is pretty close to what I mean, can you open it one-handed without the flipper?

I'll check when the production run comes in.

Right now, we're going to go Kimbertom's route and make a Native with a "German" style blade. I'll send it to Peter when Roque (has it finished our proto maker) has it finished.

sal