Two-Hand-Operated Locking Knife for the German market

Thanx much for the thoughts shared. We have created a 2nd drawing ( some designs have gone through 20+ refinements ) that I will send to Peter today. If he has time, perhaps he can post it this weekend.
Happy New Year, Sal!

Your wish is my command ... the THO 2

And now my 2 €-cents concerning the clip: Standard clip is good, deep pocket wire clip is better :D
 

Attachments

  • THO2b&w.jpg
    THO2b&w.jpg
    65.1 KB · Views: 392
Happy New Year Peter and thanx much for posting the photo. See if we can encourage more discussion.

Interesting ideas Simon. I like your thinking on the trademark hole and the guard / hole relationship. We are very conscious of that when placing holes for hole openers. However, the hole has to be in a slightly different location to serve the trademark commission. The location so that it "looks" like a Spyderco is the main issue, so the hole would have to be farther forward. I'm not as concerned over the thumb stud issue. If we make the knife to be THO, and don't offer a stud, I think our intention would be obvious. If someone chose to add a stud or a disc, or some other ONO devise, we can't be responsible for that. Your other mods are also interesting. In the end, we want a THO that will work for Germany, is posibel to build in high quality and make it available to serve the needs of the user and the laws of Germany.

sal
 
From my opinion, the second version of the THO looks much better. I'm pretty sure it'll appeal the masses more than the first sketch.
How about rising the whole blade a little bit more? I'd like it more when the blade tip somehow is closer in line with the centerline of the handle...
 
Hi Jubei,

Why do you like a tip in-line with the centerline of the handle? Is it an appeance thing?

sal
 
To my mind the THO 2 and also JO3's design both offer improvements over the initial drawing as both feature a strong and usable tip. I'm with Cugar on this: There shouldn't be any holes or dents next to the tip of the blade. Regarding JO3's second drawing, I would therefore suggest going without the Double Dent. If closed, the blade protrudes the handle considerably so seizing it with thump and index finger for opening shouldn't be a problem.

Placing the dent close to the handle as the THO 2 does is another possibility. The blade of the THO 2 itself looks fine to me, but the large handle and the narrow blade to me seem somehow mismatched. The handle should be very ergonomic, I don't doubt that. It reminds me of my Manix 1 and that centainly allows for a comfortable and secure grip. The thing is just that the handle of the THO2 looks too large for the blade. If going with a more or less straight handle is no option, then perhaps the blade could be wider. That would provide a better balance, which is also an important functional aspect.

However, in order to eliminate the flicking capability, you wanted to remove as much weight from the blade as possible, so a larger (wider) blade might not fit the bill. Then again a stiff lockback should be able to retain a large blader securely and make flicking impossible.

Thank you Sal for working with our suggestions. I'm absolutely convinced that every Spydeco will perform flawlessly and this also applies to the designs that have been already posted.
 
Last edited:
Hey Sal,

it's mainly a thing of looks but also what I'm used to on the handling side. Most knives that I use on a regular basis have a cutting line that points slightly upwards or is in line straight with the handle. I can't remember one knife in my collection or kitchen where the cutting line points downwards more than a few degress.

Most likely it's due to the special bladeshape that the THO 2 looks like pointing down in my eyes. After another honest look, it seems my first impression betrayed me a little bit. So with a more leaf-like bladeshape, the slight angle wouldn't bother me at all... :hmpf:

After reading "Atlantik"s comment, I have to completely agree with him. Somehow, the handle looks a little bit too wide for the slender bladeshape, at least in my eyes. Reducing the belly of the handle a little bit more, maybe going somewhere in the regions of a military or even of a police or endura would look more elegant.
 
Last edited:
Maybe it's a good time for a discussion within a discussion?

The concept of handle to blade ratio is primarily a "looks" or "art" reason. When I was new to knives, that always seemed like a big deal, "to the eye". As the decades marched on and my interest in knives became deeper, I learned from some of the old timers that the relationship in size of the blade to the handle is not for funtion. "Handles are for holding and blades are for cutting". The relationship of the handle is with the hand, not the blade. The relationship to the blade is the material being cut. A scalpel would not be more functional if the blade were larger or the handle were smaller. The handle is there to control the blade and the blade is there to form and support the cutting edge.

As a result of this type of thinking, we do spend some design time paying attention to the handle/blade ratio, but it's not nearly as important in the design time spent on the function and purpose for the knife. When we make "art collector" pieces, (eg: Rubicon), then the eye is important (Eric does most of those. He has a good eye), but when we make models designed to be used for EDC or particular purposes, we use more brain and less eye.

I open to discussion?

sal
 
Hi Sal,
I agree concerning handle to blade ratio .
I also like "designed in the dark" - result are good working knives.
Nethertheless I don´t like THO 1 - e.g. a Native "ditd" is more desirable.
THO 2 is closer to a knive I´d like to carry and use.
giovanni
 
The concept of handle to blade ratio is primarily a "looks" or "art" reason.

I won't argue against that, but I'm happy that you put in the word "primarily" as it leaves some room to take the functional aspects of handle to blade ratio into account.

In my point of view the handle to blade ratio affects function at least in two ways.


1. Folding knives are meant to be carried in an unobtrusive way. To me this in an important part of their function. When carrying a knife in your front pocket size matters. A bulky handle might offer a very ergonomic grip but at the same time will make it impossible to carry the knife in a low key fashion. Therefore I usually prefer handles the size of which matches the size of the blade. If I want to carry a large blade I will have to put up with a large handle obviously, but when carrying a slim and/or short blade I would prefer the handle to be slim/short, too, in order not to attract unwanted attention. Of course this is a personal preference but to me it has become one of the most important aspects when choosing a knife for EDC.

2. A discussion of handle to blade ratio should take the aspect of balance into account. I do like a well balanced knife and so do many others what - at least in part - acounts for skeletonized or tapered tangs or liners. A skeletonized liner helps to reduce the overall weight of the knife but also adds to the balance of the knife by reducing the weight of the handle. This moves the balance point closer to the blade which again makes the tip more maneuverable. Balance allows for precison and this a good thing. OK, we're not talking about swords here for which the question of balance is even more important but I think you will find that many knife users like a knife whose balance point is located right on the transition between handle and blade. In a folding knife, a bulky and heavy handle will move the balance point back to the midlle of the handle. To me, this simply feels awkward and I therefore would be strongly inclined to regard balance as a part of function - perhaps not the most important one in a folding knife, but still one that shouldn't be discarded without need.

And last but not least there is something to be said for 'neutral' handles such as Japanese knife makers often use for kitchen knives. You could even consider the straight (slightly curved) handles of katanas to be neutral. Neutral handle allow for many grips and fit different hands whereas handles with ergonomic elements like fingers grooves etc sometimes only feel good in the hand if gripped in the preset way.

The last point probably goes beyond the constraints of a discussion of handle to blade ratio but it might show why some of us hope for a straight handle in a Spyderco THO matching the blade (slim blade - slim, preferably straight hande / option No. 2: large handle - large blade). ;-)

But, as I said before, I love my Spydercos, and am quite sure that the THO will meet my requirements, too. Thanks again Sal for offering a dicussion on this.
 
Last edited:
I'd like to point out something that wasn't mentioned before and what would be a huge selling point for me:
The Feststellungsbescheid.

The Feststellungsbescheid is an official document, issued by the Bundeskriminalamt (BKA, Federal Criminal Police Office).
Upon request they will review a knife (or a weapon or a weapon-like thing) and they determine what it is: A legal weapon, an illegal weapon, no weapon at all, a one-hand-knife or a two-hand-knife,...

Examples for knives can be downloaded here:
http://www.bka.de/nn_205618/DE/Them...tellungsbescheideMesser__node.html?__nnn=true
Several Feststellungsbescheide exist for knives made by renowned german manufacturers.

The results vary, depending on the knife, from "Two-hand-knife? You wish! It's a one-hand-knife!" to "Neither a weapon nor a one-hand-knife, it's a normal two-handed utility knife.
Sometimes they even say "Are you kidding us? That's so obviously NOT a one-hand-knife and NOT a weapon that we won't even review it."

IANAL, but a Feststellungsbescheid would be at least SOME form of legal certainty and definitely give me some peace of mind.

Sal, what's your opinion?

tl, dr: Feststellungsbescheid is good & useful, I want one for the THO.
 
Last edited:
It's a typical Spyderco handle with an blade adapted for the german law.

It doesn't harmonize and it's no independent concept like the Spyderco Puukko.

Well you can buy a UK-Penknife or an Spy-DK and I think you will not get a problem with german law.

Sorry, but for me the THO doesn't appeal to buy. I don´t like it.
 
Uli, I for my person have nothing against you wanting to share with us your ideas.
 
I´d prefer a Spyderco Design rather than a Kifemaker Collaboration for the THO,
but this is up to Sal to decide because i believe this is his project.
 
Interesting thought. Thanx much.

On the "2" version, I moved the double dent as far back as I thought I could go and still be functional. I minimized the blade exposure to keep it light. I put our trademark hole through the double dent. It does maked it possible to put a stud in there, but perhaps we can figure out a way to avoid that? It's certaily not the intention. I can take a couple of mm out of the middle of the handle to make it narrower, and we can go to a tip up deep pocket wire clip. Yes this means new tooling, bujt if we end up with a very good knife for you, then we'll do it. You can help me spend Spyderco's prototype budget :)

As far as design / designer; I am assisting a bunch of German knife afi's to design a knife that they will all like to carry in their country. All assistance is appreciated. We've not yet discused materials, names, etc. So we still have much work to do. I'll get a drawing going with the changes listed above. the "3" version. I'm traveling to shows for a couple of weeks so communication will be slower.

Thanx much for your help.

sal
 
Hey Sal,

can you give a feedback about the status?
When can we see the new concepts/drawings?


Thanks and regards
Pucki
 
Hi Pucki,

Thanx for the bump. I've been traveling quite a bit so design time hs been behind. I just got back from the A'Dam meet and I'm catching up. I will create a new drawing based on the comments and re-submit.

sal
 
Hi Sal,
I´d be all over the THO2 ! Looks very pleasing to my eye as is.
Like the first one too, designwise, except for the depression at the tip of the Blade, that would actually be a dealbreaker for me, no matter how the rest of the knife looks.
I really dont think that anyone would have trouble opening it without the depression and IMHO it just doesnt work with the rest of the design.
Just my 2 Cts
Greets,
Markus
 
We have a THO3 design. I'm still trying to hang on to the Stretch handle as it would save time and tooling, making the model more able to build. I've enlarged the blade (wider and longer) and raised the tip. I'll try to get a pic to Peter early next week as I'm out again on Thursday.

sal
 
Back