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Messerbörse Schaafheim am Sonntag, 28. April 2024 von 10:00 bis 17:00 Uhr: Messerbörse Schaafheim 2024Thread zur Messerbörse: Thread Messerbörse Schaafheim 2024
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KNIFE 2024: 11./12. Mai in Solingen: KNIFE 2024: 11./12. Mai in SolingenThread zur KNIFE 2024: Thread KNIFE 2024
Feasible, but complicated.
If a button is used to keep the blade locked in the open and closed position, releasing the lock or pressing the button would make the knife flickable. If you use two different locking systems for open and closed locking, (button / lock back) manufacturing becomes more complicated and more expensive.
sal
If a button is used to keep the blade locked in the open and closed position, releasing the lock or pressing the button would make the knife flickable. If you use two different locking systems for open and closed locking, (button / lock back) manufacturing becomes more complicated and more expensive.
sal
Thank you Sal
I was thinking of a large detent ball seated deep in blade to increase resistance. Could a dent or cut in the blade where the lock rests in the closed position increase resistance without having to increase the tension of the lock-spring to a level that might complicate closing the knife?
You probably thought of all this already, I feel silly suggesting it, but, now I have said it out loud.
I look forward to see what you come up with.
Niels
I was thinking of a large detent ball seated deep in blade to increase resistance. Could a dent or cut in the blade where the lock rests in the closed position increase resistance without having to increase the tension of the lock-spring to a level that might complicate closing the knife?
You probably thought of all this already, I feel silly suggesting it, but, now I have said it out loud.
I look forward to see what you come up with.
Niels
Hi Niels,
I appreciate all of the thoughts and suggestions.
We can make a ball detent so hard to open that it won't open. We make some for the Australian market that are difficult to flick, but they can be opened with one hand. I believe that we'll get a better resistance to opening, (to prevent flicking), but still have a smooth opening and a strong detent with a lockback which has constant pressure on the tang.
That's not in stone though.
sal
I appreciate all of the thoughts and suggestions.
We can make a ball detent so hard to open that it won't open. We make some for the Australian market that are difficult to flick, but they can be opened with one hand. I believe that we'll get a better resistance to opening, (to prevent flicking), but still have a smooth opening and a strong detent with a lockback which has constant pressure on the tang.
That's not in stone though.
sal
G
gast
Gast
Are there some initial considerations, which handles there will be for this knive?
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Virgil4
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Thanks a lot for the first sketch, Sal.
Very smart idea to move the Spyderhole towards the tip of the blade
- it might just not be sufficient in the eyes of our "law enforcement" to classify the knife as a two-hand-operated one.
Hmm - the shape of the blade ... not really what I would like to see, but this is a question of personal taste.
Too much belly on the edge and the spine curve before the Spyderhole looks to deep for me. What about a straighter (even convex) spine line and less belly, which would bring us more in the direction of a sheepfoot or Sebenza Insingo type of blade?
A deep-carry wire clip would also be more interesting for me than having the possibility to choose between a tip-up and tip-down configuration.
Just my five personal cents - curious to see the next steps
Regards and all the best for 2015!
Virgil
Very smart idea to move the Spyderhole towards the tip of the blade
- it might just not be sufficient in the eyes of our "law enforcement" to classify the knife as a two-hand-operated one. Hmm - the shape of the blade ... not really what I would like to see, but this is a question of personal taste.
Too much belly on the edge and the spine curve before the Spyderhole looks to deep for me. What about a straighter (even convex) spine line and less belly, which would bring us more in the direction of a sheepfoot or Sebenza Insingo type of blade?
A deep-carry wire clip would also be more interesting for me than having the possibility to choose between a tip-up and tip-down configuration.
Just my five personal cents - curious to see the next steps
Regards and all the best for 2015!
Virgil
DaDavid
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Hi Sal, hi Peter
thanks for the Sketch!
my2cents:
Looks like kinda big Pingo, which i like. And it exactly moves away what is not superduper at the Pingo (bit to tiny and no Lock).
But the Rhino horn is a bit creepy
a bit less of it and in the front without any Hole, this would be my choice. The Hole in the front is a kind of dirt collector, primarly because it is at the front and therefore directly in the cutting part.
I agree with Virgil in most of his arguments: the law enforcement could be "not amused" of the Hole too, wire clip for the win and also his ideas of changing the bladeshape is for me a nice idea (and fits with mine, no hole, no horn)
i'm curious too
bests
David
thanks for the Sketch!
my2cents:
Looks like kinda big Pingo, which i like. And it exactly moves away what is not superduper at the Pingo (bit to tiny and no Lock).
But the Rhino horn is a bit creepy
a bit less of it and in the front without any Hole, this would be my choice. The Hole in the front is a kind of dirt collector, primarly because it is at the front and therefore directly in the cutting part. I agree with Virgil in most of his arguments: the law enforcement could be "not amused" of the Hole too, wire clip for the win and also his ideas of changing the bladeshape is for me a nice idea (and fits with mine, no hole, no horn)
i'm curious too
bests
David
I'd like to thank Peter for posting the first drawing of a Two Hand Opener (THO) being developed for the German market.
This is an initial drawing and I believe that we'll need discussion to bring it forward. Much of the design has been thought about for many hours and the sharing of thought should bring us closer. I believe that first I will need to explain my thinking for the design.
The first consideration is that we are designing a model to meet a law. This is much different than designing to perform a function. The knife laws as silly as they may appear are still the final word in any given area. The design parameter for this model is that; 1) it must not be able to be opened with one hand and 2) it must lock open.
Knives that can be opened with one hand are; 1) flicked open using inertia (or a spring), 2) opened by using one's thumb to interact with an appendage on the blade such as a thumb stud, disc, or other appendage added to the blade to facilitate one hand opening, 3) using one's thumb to interact with a hole or depression in the blade to facilitate one hand opening.
The "flicking" open of a knife must be dealt with first because most locking knives can be "flicked" open by a skilled user. (many of the authorities doing the testing are skilled at flicking open a knife). This is a major concern and is of primary importance in dealing with government authorities. If a knife can be "flicked" open, it is similar to the dreaded and feared "switchblade" knife, which causes women to scream and grown men to cry. In Australia, it is the major test of a legal knife. Similar in New York City. Why this is so important to governments is primarily ignorance, (the nuns running the whorehouse), but it is something that we as manufacturers and users of knives have to deal with.
Knives can be "flicked" open by holding the handle and rotating the knife quickly in some manner (often with a twist) to deploy the blade. Another method (as used in New York City) is to grab the blade that protrudes from the handle when the knife is closed (usually with the thumb and index finger) and snap the handle down to deploy the blade and have the knife in the "ready" position to do harm.
In order to eliminate the flicking capability, one must remove as much weight from the blade as is possible without decreasing strength which could make the knife flimsy. The next issue was to permit little or no blade sticking out of the handle when closed so it is not possible to grab the blade and snap the handle down. This grabbing needs to be as close to the pivot as possible or the knife when flicked will not be able to be used without a major adjustment to grip.
The model as drawn puts as much of the blade deep into the handle as possible without damaging ergonomics or blade strength. I selected a 3mm blade thickness for function and strength.
While the blade has a hole in the "trademark" position to identify the knife as a Spyderco, it is a small hole (too small to thumb open) and the hole is slightly submerged below the handle scale so a thumb stud cannot be added.
The "hole" in the front of the blade is NOT a hole. It is made of two concave dimples which we call a "Double Dent". It is easily grabbed with the thumb and index finger to easily and safely deploy the blade with the second hand. We are using this opening concept on a new model we have called the "Roadie" which was just released this week. The "Double Dent" will not trap debris and is easily cleaned. It does give the knife an Interesting (strange) appearance, but we are seeking function over looks.
The blade as drawn is 3.5" long from the handle to the point and the handle is basically a "Stretch" handle with a finger choil. We used a lock-back as it has the most effective detent for keeping a knife closed. We added a Boye dent to the lock to prevent accidental unlocking. We can also used a smaller lock well to eliminate the Boye dent.
Please think about it ane we can go from there. It would be foolish to create a design that the market doesn't want.
sal
This is an initial drawing and I believe that we'll need discussion to bring it forward. Much of the design has been thought about for many hours and the sharing of thought should bring us closer. I believe that first I will need to explain my thinking for the design.
The first consideration is that we are designing a model to meet a law. This is much different than designing to perform a function. The knife laws as silly as they may appear are still the final word in any given area. The design parameter for this model is that; 1) it must not be able to be opened with one hand and 2) it must lock open.
Knives that can be opened with one hand are; 1) flicked open using inertia (or a spring), 2) opened by using one's thumb to interact with an appendage on the blade such as a thumb stud, disc, or other appendage added to the blade to facilitate one hand opening, 3) using one's thumb to interact with a hole or depression in the blade to facilitate one hand opening.
The "flicking" open of a knife must be dealt with first because most locking knives can be "flicked" open by a skilled user. (many of the authorities doing the testing are skilled at flicking open a knife). This is a major concern and is of primary importance in dealing with government authorities. If a knife can be "flicked" open, it is similar to the dreaded and feared "switchblade" knife, which causes women to scream and grown men to cry. In Australia, it is the major test of a legal knife. Similar in New York City. Why this is so important to governments is primarily ignorance, (the nuns running the whorehouse), but it is something that we as manufacturers and users of knives have to deal with.
Knives can be "flicked" open by holding the handle and rotating the knife quickly in some manner (often with a twist) to deploy the blade. Another method (as used in New York City) is to grab the blade that protrudes from the handle when the knife is closed (usually with the thumb and index finger) and snap the handle down to deploy the blade and have the knife in the "ready" position to do harm.
In order to eliminate the flicking capability, one must remove as much weight from the blade as is possible without decreasing strength which could make the knife flimsy. The next issue was to permit little or no blade sticking out of the handle when closed so it is not possible to grab the blade and snap the handle down. This grabbing needs to be as close to the pivot as possible or the knife when flicked will not be able to be used without a major adjustment to grip.
The model as drawn puts as much of the blade deep into the handle as possible without damaging ergonomics or blade strength. I selected a 3mm blade thickness for function and strength.
While the blade has a hole in the "trademark" position to identify the knife as a Spyderco, it is a small hole (too small to thumb open) and the hole is slightly submerged below the handle scale so a thumb stud cannot be added.
The "hole" in the front of the blade is NOT a hole. It is made of two concave dimples which we call a "Double Dent". It is easily grabbed with the thumb and index finger to easily and safely deploy the blade with the second hand. We are using this opening concept on a new model we have called the "Roadie" which was just released this week. The "Double Dent" will not trap debris and is easily cleaned. It does give the knife an Interesting (strange) appearance, but we are seeking function over looks.
The blade as drawn is 3.5" long from the handle to the point and the handle is basically a "Stretch" handle with a finger choil. We used a lock-back as it has the most effective detent for keeping a knife closed. We added a Boye dent to the lock to prevent accidental unlocking. We can also used a smaller lock well to eliminate the Boye dent.
Please think about it ane we can go from there. It would be foolish to create a design that the market doesn't want.
sal
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Thanks for the Sketch, Sal.
This is just my personal opinion and I am sure ergonomically it would work just fine, but to be honest: I personally don't like the design aesthetically. For me, that means I wouldn't buy it (assuming a price of more than 50 Euro).
However in my eyes some changes to the blade and a minor change to the handle (I never liked the butt on the stretch handle) could improve the aesthetics signifficantly, without harming it's egonomics.
Like I said, this is just my personal preference and I don't want to step on anybodys foot, I just thought sharing my thoughts might help.
Best regards,
Simon Leineweber
This is just my personal opinion and I am sure ergonomically it would work just fine, but to be honest: I personally don't like the design aesthetically. For me, that means I wouldn't buy it (assuming a price of more than 50 Euro).
However in my eyes some changes to the blade and a minor change to the handle (I never liked the butt on the stretch handle) could improve the aesthetics signifficantly, without harming it's egonomics.
Like I said, this is just my personal preference and I don't want to step on anybodys foot, I just thought sharing my thoughts might help.
Best regards,
Simon Leineweber
Atlantik
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Glad to see that the project is going somewhere. This THO surely would make a great cutter and the handle promises a secure grip - but - and this is a large but - the blade really looks strange. With its combination of hump, dimples and spyderhole it somehow reminds me of a rhino - and a rhino looking none too happy that is.
Form should follow function, no objection here, but I don't think that a Double Dent or hump are necessary to open a THO knife. A traditional nail nick would do. A nail nick would also allow for a more traditional drop point, straight point or clip point blade. These blade shapes probably would appeal to a larger customer base and could be used in manifold ways. The first draft of the THO focusses just on cutting.
With the Memory or the Nilakka Spyderco has designed knives that look great and sport versatile blades which don't protrude the handle or only a little. Let the blade protrude the hande a little, put a small Spyderhole and a nail nick on a knife like that and you have a knife people probably would love. Alternatively the blade could be enclosed in the handle completely if the handle has two opposing cutouts next to the the blade tip like some higgokonamis have. Then you could seize the blade with your thump and index finger in a pinch grip and pull it out. No need for a nail nick then. A straight point blade and a straight metal handle would really go well with this.
Perhaps I should add that all this is not meant as an appeal to copy an already existing knife design. I just think that what many here are looking for is a legal replacement for a popular Spyderco knife they already own (such as the Endura, the Police, the Military etc) and not a more or less 'exotic' addition to their collection ( e.g. a Depressed Rhino). A more conventional blade shape might suit that need better.
Just my 2 cents of course.
Form should follow function, no objection here, but I don't think that a Double Dent or hump are necessary to open a THO knife. A traditional nail nick would do. A nail nick would also allow for a more traditional drop point, straight point or clip point blade. These blade shapes probably would appeal to a larger customer base and could be used in manifold ways. The first draft of the THO focusses just on cutting.
With the Memory or the Nilakka Spyderco has designed knives that look great and sport versatile blades which don't protrude the handle or only a little. Let the blade protrude the hande a little, put a small Spyderhole and a nail nick on a knife like that and you have a knife people probably would love. Alternatively the blade could be enclosed in the handle completely if the handle has two opposing cutouts next to the the blade tip like some higgokonamis have. Then you could seize the blade with your thump and index finger in a pinch grip and pull it out. No need for a nail nick then. A straight point blade and a straight metal handle would really go well with this.
Perhaps I should add that all this is not meant as an appeal to copy an already existing knife design. I just think that what many here are looking for is a legal replacement for a popular Spyderco knife they already own (such as the Endura, the Police, the Military etc) and not a more or less 'exotic' addition to their collection ( e.g. a Depressed Rhino). A more conventional blade shape might suit that need better.
Just my 2 cents of course.
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Hi Atlantik,
We can disuss the question of a nail nick, but my own experience is that nail nicks are dificult for many to use. Many don't have nails or their nails aren't very strong. I could more easily be convinced to make the cut-outs in the handle, though that would affect ergonomics.
I'm surprized that there is so much objection to the "look". Most felt that our Spyderco's looked odd when first introduced, but eventually accepted that the shape provided better performance.
sal
We can disuss the question of a nail nick, but my own experience is that nail nicks are dificult for many to use. Many don't have nails or their nails aren't very strong. I could more easily be convinced to make the cut-outs in the handle, though that would affect ergonomics.
I'm surprized that there is so much objection to the "look". Most felt that our Spyderco's looked odd when first introduced, but eventually accepted that the shape provided better performance.
sal
Hello,
It should be possible to modify the Spyderco backlock folders in a way that you have to push the backlock for opening as well.
Adding a second small gap where the lockbar blocks the blade from one hand opening should work.
That should make them a two hand operating knife then. Caly or Delica for example.
Please keep the typical Spyderco designs.
It should be possible to modify the Spyderco backlock folders in a way that you have to push the backlock for opening as well.
Adding a second small gap where the lockbar blocks the blade from one hand opening should work.
That should make them a two hand operating knife then. Caly or Delica for example.
Please keep the typical Spyderco designs.
Annihilator
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He bring it to the point
The blade looks terrible and it doesn't look like a typical spyderco
Hi Sal,
as I took the first look at this bladeshape... I thought of a rhino and didn't like it.
My second idea was, how the blade would look like, if i grind the dimple of.
Like a droppoint, keeping the curve on the back of the blade. It would be difficult to open only by the small spyderhole.
But if I buy it like this, the dimple would'nt survive very long.
Depending to the stiffness of the lock, you don't need your nails with the nailnick.
Just the improved grip in this area is enough for me to open.
Maybe a longpull, like on other traditional knifes, would be suited.
It's a difficult progress to design a knife meeting the laws, keeping the spyderco design and the customer wishes.
You talked about the possibility to open the knife one-handed with some tricks. Of course it should be a two-handed knife.
Even an Opinel or a standard Victorinox could be opend one-handed, but nobody would think of an illegal carry item.
If your design will be as hard to open like these, there should be no problem. Especially with a Backlock with two locking positions.
In this design spyderco is pushing it to excess to meet the law. Form follows law. Maybe you could achieve this by the technics inside, instead of dimples.
Please don't be offended by my 2cents. It's difficult for me to explain in english. It should not sound harsh!
Thank you for your patience and including your customers into the evolution of your design.
greetings, Jan
Edit: The clip should be the wire-clip. Like on the UKPK. It's not a dealbreaker for me (because the knife is legal to carry) but it would be much more appealing to me and hidden to others.
as I took the first look at this bladeshape... I thought of a rhino and didn't like it.
My second idea was, how the blade would look like, if i grind the dimple of.
Like a droppoint, keeping the curve on the back of the blade. It would be difficult to open only by the small spyderhole.
But if I buy it like this, the dimple would'nt survive very long.
Depending to the stiffness of the lock, you don't need your nails with the nailnick.
Just the improved grip in this area is enough for me to open.
Maybe a longpull, like on other traditional knifes, would be suited.
It's a difficult progress to design a knife meeting the laws, keeping the spyderco design and the customer wishes.
You talked about the possibility to open the knife one-handed with some tricks. Of course it should be a two-handed knife.
Even an Opinel or a standard Victorinox could be opend one-handed, but nobody would think of an illegal carry item.
If your design will be as hard to open like these, there should be no problem. Especially with a Backlock with two locking positions.
In this design spyderco is pushing it to excess to meet the law. Form follows law. Maybe you could achieve this by the technics inside, instead of dimples.
Please don't be offended by my 2cents. It's difficult for me to explain in english. It should not sound harsh!
Thank you for your patience and including your customers into the evolution of your design.
greetings, Jan
Edit: The clip should be the wire-clip. Like on the UKPK. It's not a dealbreaker for me (because the knife is legal to carry) but it would be much more appealing to me and hidden to others.
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Happy New Year! We wish all of you a healthy, happy and successful 2015.
Thanx much for the thoughts shared. We have created a 2nd drawing ( some designs have gone through 20+ refinements ) that I will send to Peter today. If he has time, perhaps he can post it this weekend.
On the locking closed concept. In my opinion, adding a notch to the tang to keep the knife locked closed is not an impossible task, just some engineering. But a lock-back is very difficult to unlock to open the knife. especially if a strong spring is used. It is not a user friendly manipulation, and I believe it will make the knife too difficult to open, and will reduce the success of the the design. Using a different lock is possible, but if the locki is user friendly and easy to unlock, then it is also easier to flick open.
The next refinement is different in that I eliminated the "Rhino" hump and moved the dent to the trademark hole postion. (and put the hole through the concave dent) I believe it would be possible to open the knife with the thumb and index finger in this position, though not as easily as the "Rhino" hump. This is not to say that I still think the "Rhino" would be more functional, but I feel that all of the possibilities should be explored. I have been using the "Roadie" for weeks as an EDC and the Double Dent at the tip is very user friendly and functional.
I also reduced the belly and raised the rear of the spine as JO3 suggested. I didn't change the handle as the handle is the one planned for the next Stretch model. It is very ergonomic and permits us to uses the same tooling for this model. At least for now, that is my thinking. The change that JO3 suggested for the handle is for "looks" only and would not make a difference in function.
Please let me know your thoughts on the next design and see if you can get more participants from Germany sharing their thoughts. Sometimes the more input the better. Sometimes not; a camel is a horse designed by a team of engineers.
sal
Thanx much for the thoughts shared. We have created a 2nd drawing ( some designs have gone through 20+ refinements ) that I will send to Peter today. If he has time, perhaps he can post it this weekend.
On the locking closed concept. In my opinion, adding a notch to the tang to keep the knife locked closed is not an impossible task, just some engineering. But a lock-back is very difficult to unlock to open the knife. especially if a strong spring is used. It is not a user friendly manipulation, and I believe it will make the knife too difficult to open, and will reduce the success of the the design. Using a different lock is possible, but if the locki is user friendly and easy to unlock, then it is also easier to flick open.
The next refinement is different in that I eliminated the "Rhino" hump and moved the dent to the trademark hole postion. (and put the hole through the concave dent) I believe it would be possible to open the knife with the thumb and index finger in this position, though not as easily as the "Rhino" hump. This is not to say that I still think the "Rhino" would be more functional, but I feel that all of the possibilities should be explored. I have been using the "Roadie" for weeks as an EDC and the Double Dent at the tip is very user friendly and functional.
I also reduced the belly and raised the rear of the spine as JO3 suggested. I didn't change the handle as the handle is the one planned for the next Stretch model. It is very ergonomic and permits us to uses the same tooling for this model. At least for now, that is my thinking. The change that JO3 suggested for the handle is for "looks" only and would not make a difference in function.
Please let me know your thoughts on the next design and see if you can get more participants from Germany sharing their thoughts. Sometimes the more input the better. Sometimes not; a camel is a horse designed by a team of engineers.
sal
cugar
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- 3,216
Hello Sal,
as much as i like most Spyderco Designs, as much i don´t like the THO.
IMHO a knife needs a tip, a real tip like the Para-Military for example,
and a hole or a dent is nothing that should be close to the tip.
Look at the Southhard Flipper from the lockbar side, if the Trademark Hole is mostly
covert by the handle you can´t open it with one hand, but grab it with your nails as with a
classic nail nick.
Regards, Alex
as much as i like most Spyderco Designs, as much i don´t like the THO.
IMHO a knife needs a tip, a real tip like the Para-Military for example,
and a hole or a dent is nothing that should be close to the tip.
Look at the Southhard Flipper from the lockbar side, if the Trademark Hole is mostly
covert by the handle you can´t open it with one hand, but grab it with your nails as with a
classic nail nick.
Regards, Alex
Hello Sal,
I made another sketch, based on the stretch handle. I made the tip a little pointier and the blade a bit beefier, gave it a rounded thumb ramp and a small "ricasso-nick"(or whatever it's called
). Also I moved the Spyderhole more towards the pivot, this way it gets partly blocked by the handle while opening (I marked the spot), which should make it pretty much impossible to use it for one hand opening.
Of course, the pointy part of the spine could be rounded, but I liked it more this way; just my personal preference. Also, "jimping" should be, where it was on the original sketch, but it's still just a sketch and I just couldn't really draw it without spending too much time...
It's still not shaped like a classic Spyderco, I know, but I think doing things different isn't a bad thing.
....wow, I'm getting really invested in this thing
. I hope the final product will be a huge success for you. Best of luck for you and Spyderco for 2015.
Best regards,
Simon Leineweber
I made another sketch, based on the stretch handle. I made the tip a little pointier and the blade a bit beefier, gave it a rounded thumb ramp and a small "ricasso-nick"(or whatever it's called
). Also I moved the Spyderhole more towards the pivot, this way it gets partly blocked by the handle while opening (I marked the spot), which should make it pretty much impossible to use it for one hand opening.
Of course, the pointy part of the spine could be rounded, but I liked it more this way; just my personal preference. Also, "jimping" should be, where it was on the original sketch, but it's still just a sketch and I just couldn't really draw it without spending too much time...
It's still not shaped like a classic Spyderco, I know, but I think doing things different isn't a bad thing.
....wow, I'm getting really invested in this thing
. I hope the final product will be a huge success for you. Best of luck for you and Spyderco for 2015.Best regards,
Simon Leineweber