http://www.holsterbau.de/
https://www.messerforum.net/threads/keidechse-gut-in-form.80939/

"Finger" choils

S

Sal

Mitglied
Messages
80
I have this posted this discussion on both Bladeforums Spyderco forum and the Spyderco site forum, and the Spyderco forum on messerforum.

A "true" choil is the notch separating the cutting edge from the ricaasso. Some like them, some don't. Probably a discussion for another thread?

A "finger" choil is a newer design concept (20 yrs?) in folders. They have been used successfully on Fixed blades for many years. In a folder they normally separate the blade from the handle with an indentation large enough to provide the index finger with a "closer to the edge" position.

Spyderco has been using "finger" choils in some of our designs since the mid 90's. Obviously we think they have function. Some of our thoughts.

1. They allow a very close "choke up" on the edge while still maintaining good control to prevent slipping onto the edge.

2. They permit more purchase and therefore control over the edge when used in a smaller knife.

3. They are a safety feature in slip-joints, (straight slips, notch-joints, T-Mag-joints, etc.) to prevent accidental closing of the blade onto the finger.

What are your thoughts?

So who likes them & why?

and who doesn't like them and why?

sal

-------------------------------------------------------

We are all teachers and we are all students.
 
Revierler said:
I like them for the reasons you stated above.
Click to expand...

Same here!

Being able to actually grab the blade (in addition to the handle) between the thumb and the index finger adds a lot of control for finer work IMO.

I also like the blade being part of the handle for smaller knives, like the native for example. It combines a large gripping surface open with a small package closed.
 
I like them on large knives and very small knives. Manix and Dodo would be two very good examples. Not sure if I really like 'em on knives like the Mini Manix, since it vastly reduces the already pretty short cutting edge IMO.

Keno
 
Last edited:
Only talking about folders: if I could choose the same knife with or without choil, I would prefer without one, because of the useable length of the cutting edge.
 
I like finger choils on knives, for all the reasons stated above. As I don't use my knives particularly hard, though, I would say my main reason for liking this type of choil is aesthetics - the way it makes the contours of blade and handle flow together.

Björn
 
i concurr with all three stated above plus they have benefits when sharpening the blade as you can sharpen it right down to the end, without gtting that recurve shape.
but thats with "normal choil" also.
 
I don´t like large choils in the handle. They feel great at first but reduce the variety of comfort grip positions. In a fixed bladed knife i would choose a long curve at the downside of the handle to get a secure grip and the flexibility for short and long grips without the disturbing corner of the choil.

Choils in the blade, Strider or SR Bandicoot like, seem a waste of steel to me. I have the SR Bandicoot and can say, that in the traditional handle grip i miss the edge and in the choil grip the handle is uncomfort plus the choil ends in the edge so you risk a cut yourself.

I prefer choils in folders in the way, the AFCK has one small choil under the pivot (i don´t mean the characteristic large one).

But as small ones, rounding the ricasso. Good thing for security, when the blade closes in. Many like the Spyderco feature for that reason.

But in most cases i found the "choil - knives" to show much grip positions, but in the end just one (the short) really works. So, my vote is:

NO!
 
I go with ge2r and cheez.

I like the coil on big folders (like the Manix) for a second grip position which gives more control for finer cutting tasks.

I like it on small folders (like the Kiwi) where it combines a large handle with a small size of the closed folder.

I have no use for it on medium folders. I recently tested the Mini Manix (Thanks for the opportunity!) and had enough control in the »normal« grip position. In that case I would appreciate a longer cutting edge more than second grip position.
 
I'm somewhat undecided:
On the one hand, you can control the blade very accurate, on the other hand there could be more blade per handle.
 
I am conform with Osterguentermann (answer #5) because of the same reason.
But a finger choil is not a k.o. criterion.
 
Nice topic, and a great opportunity to give a conclusion from what I experienced in the last few Spyderco passarounds in the last weeks and months.

I just had the Mini Manix from the Passaround for a week, and I also had the Dodo a few months ago.

The first impression with deep finger choils is most likely positive.

It´s like a "Whow, what a safe grip!"

But this is only a first impression, which doesn´t stand when you carry the knife for a while.

If I use the knives for a longer time, I feel restricted to only one or two grip positions which work proper.

Most other varieties won´t work well because there´s always some buckle on the handle you hit with your finger when you grab the knife.

Try to make a cut upwards with a Mini Manix. Where do you place your thumb?
You won´t find a suitable grip position, because the front choil is too deep.

Same with the Dodo.
Have a look HERE

In the attachement to this posting you can see a Dodo picture with two little handle modifications which IMHO would improve the performance by far.

From my experiences, I see these deep choils as a typical design element.
A great curved handle looks always more exciting, of course, and more characteristic than a "smoother" one, but it reduces the performance because the versatility is often very restricted by these handles.

Your fingers have to follow the handle design.
In my opinion, the handle design should follow the needs of the human hand.
This is true ergonomics.

If you have a knife with one clearly defined grip position for a very special use (like the Boker Jim Wagner RBB), this concept might work.
But this is an exception, because most knives are not made for only one task.

And generally, the lack of cutting edge might be another disadvantage in other cutting tasks, too, if the blade is part of the first choil (index finger choil).

I also handled the Kris in a passaround, and there, it´s impossible to grab the knife with thumb and index finger directly opposite each other.

You can grab forward, and you you can grab back, but you can´t grab "straight", if you understand what I´m trying to say.

I don´t want to sound harsh, but your direct and clear question seemed to wait for a equally clear answer. ;)

BTW, I´m very curious to handle Chad´s Lava!
Maybe in the next passaround? :D
 
choils are a self-fulfilling prophecy.
if you have one, you need it in order to compensate for bad ergonimics.
if you don't have it and have a well-designed grip/blade junction instead, you won't miss it at all.

the point ist, a choil badly decreases your possible cutting force due to unfavorable leverage, and you cannot compensate for this by gripping the choil because this grip position usually isn't suitable for heavy cutting tasks. maybe in small blades that aren't meant for heavy cutting anyway, choils are ok, but not for big knives.

for me, when evaluating the practical usefulness of a knife design, it is an important criteria how much of a distance there is between your index finger and the beginning of the cutting edge. the smaller this distance, the better. the lil' temperance is a great example for good design in this respect.

ok, if you're only going to look at a knife or open letters&boxes with it, a choil doesn't hurt.

for "working knives", a choil just plain sucks.

in my humble opinion. ;)
 
Last edited:
Most of the pros and cons are already discussed. I do agree with them who prefer knives without choils. Allthough for some special applications requiring close blade controll they may seem useful but in a small or mid-size folder they don't come up for the loss of cutting edge.

More over: you can only have choils in a very specific blade design with a blade high enough to have a spydie-hole a n d a choil. The big Manix (I realy like mine) is a good example. But you can't have a choil in a blade design like the police or the military.

Concerning blade controll I think other good spydie designs like the police, the military and the Wayne Godard for e.g. do offer excellent and outstanding blade controll without loosing cutting edge for a big finger choil.

Concerning big knives one can possibly think the other way round:
having a choil in the front end of the handle. (For example in the knive desings of Polkowsky / Kasper).
This would offer benefits like stronger blade, longer cutting edge and good blade controll.

Would be nice to see a knew design from Spyderco like this.

Best wishes

Paco
 
Osterguentermann said:
Only talking about folders: if I could choose the same knife with or without choil, I would prefer without one, because of the useable length of the cutting edge.
Click to expand...

I agree to Osterguentermann because of the same reason especially on small Folders.

best regards

markus
 
Secure and fast one-hand closing of the knive seems to be an advantage of a choil that is part of the blade, because you can push the lock and let the blade fall down on your index finger.
But other designs as the Wayne Goddard offer the same closing possibility without sacrificing any cutting edge length.

Grip positions and longer possible cutting edge speak against choils.

I like my Spydercos that have choils, but if you ask me if I like the choils the answer is: No.
 
giovanni said:
Secure and fast one-hand closing of the knive seems to be an advantage of a choil that is part of the blade, because you can push the lock and let the blade fall down on your index finger.
Click to expand...

But that only works for lockbacks.

Other locks, like an Axis don´t have to be pushed, so there are "no fingers in the blade path" (that is part of the advertisment by BM :D but true :D ).

On linerlocks, the fingers position is so far back, a blade choil would spend half the total possible edge.
 
Good input. Thanx much.

On a smaller folder (50mm - 65mm blade), and on non locking folders, choils have a purchase or safety advantage.

What would be the maximum blade length (on a locking folder) you would consider a choil an advantage.

I guess I won't plan a choil for the German "penknife" ;)

sal
 
giovanni said:
I like my Spydercos that have choils, but if you ask me if I like the choils the answer is: No.
Click to expand...

I changed mind. Now I thought some weeks about choils, and there has to be a reason why my favourite knives -Manix and Native III- have choils. Well I like the secure grip choils offer. And also if cutting edge length is sacrified - a very sharp knive doesn´t need a very long cutting edge. And I like the control when the index finger is very close to the edge.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back