C45 Hamon

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Hi,

I am trying to get good steel for Japanese style blades like Tanto's and I after a tip from a member here I found "C45 Spieenstaal". Here is the link: http://www.meeuwsen.nl/catalogus/serie.php?b_id=14&h_id=&a_id=103&s_id=228

Has anyone used C45 steel to make blades with a Hamon?
Is this steel good for creating a Hamon?
If anyone has pictures, please show them.

It is sometimes also called Ck45 or C45K, are these just different names, or is the steel a little different too?

Thanks for any help, mit freundlichen Grüßen aus die Niederlanden, Louis
 
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I think most people wouldnt reccomend c45 or ck45 (only difference ck45 is slightly less "polluted") for any kind of knives, just because of the lower hardness and therefore lesser capability to keep its sharpness. I have no experience with hamons at all, so i can only guess. The relativly low amount of carbon, which will produce the martensite structure in and near the edge (if correktly tempered) may be too small to be well seen. But this is only a guess. On the other hand, c45 is already "soft" (about 55 degree rockwell c) in comparison to other knife-steels, so a differential heat treating for this kind of steel is not as effekcive as it may occur to you.

In addition comes, that the correct polishing technique is crucial for the hamon to be seen. Only correct polishing will bring out the different strucures in the steel.

So here come the alternative steels and where you can buy them. There should be anything that you need for knive making, including wood, pins, blades, steel etc. If you need anything else, check out the thread "bezugsquellen zusammenfassung" here in the forum. (im too lazy to pick out the link). Try out a steel like c100w6, c70 or something like that. But better than relying on others (especially me ;)) is to get the knowledge yourself. The forum here provides a lot of this. Search about wärmebehandlung and hamon. These are only two keyword that will bring reading material for nights. Google may help translate

www.lindenschmiede.de

www.schanz-messer.de

www.gobec.at

www.steigerwald-messer.de

www.wolf-borger-messer.de

www.bladesandmore.de

A last hint from my side. c45 in my opinion is good, if you want to experiment and learn forging and heat treating of carbon steels in generell. It is cheap and will forgive mistakes and you can try your own heat treating techniques without having to care too much about the money you spent on material. I always make my first forging experiment in c45 (e.g. if i am new to sword forging, i forge a c45 sword).

I hope that this helps you out a bit.
 
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Thanks for the reply,

There are a lot of companies like Paul Chen and Cheness that use 1045 (AISI equivalent of C45)for there bottom line katana's, they get a decent Hamon and enough hardness for light tameshigiri.

As for now, I am not worried about hardness, I have C105 for that.
I just want an easy to forge steel that will get me good activity so that I can experiment in creating a Hamon. So it's more for my experience and knowledge about heat treating.
On another forum I found that plenty people use 1045 and 1050 steel for anything from naginata's to full katana's.

I checked out the links but apart from messenmacherbedarf neither of them have steel that will take a good Hamon.

Do you happen to know where I can find information about heat-treating and tempering C45 steel?

Louis
 
Ck60 was not good enough
(
Danke, aber die C60 hat zu viel Mangan, 1.3505 hat zu viel Mangan und Chrom und 105 hat zu viel Kohlenstoff.

The ideal steel would have at least this:
C 0,50% - 0,90%
Mn 0,30% MAX
Cr 0,10% MAX
)
and now you are searching for Ck45?:confused::confused::confused:

:confused:Willy:confused:
 
well in this forum you should find any information about heat treating low alloyed carbon steels. Most companies that sell steel (and c45 is very common) will provide data sheets, that most likely will contain information about heat treating as well as the composition of that very steel.

If you are confident in using c45 and being able to create a hamon, go ahead. I encourage own experiments.

The reason paul chen and fellows use c45 might lie in the fact that this steel is of course very cheap and common. In my opinion it isnt designed for knives or even katanas that require more flexibility.

Be sure to present your tanto when its finished.
 
and now you are searching for Ck45?:confused::confused::confused:

:confused:Willy:confused:

Yes, that must sound confusing :hmpf: But there are three reasons for that:
One, It is difficult as &%^#$! to find good steel here. After a lot of searching I found out all kinds of people from sword producers to enthusiasts to professional swordmakers get good results with this steel (enough for tameshigiri and a good Hamon).

Two: (What I found out a while ago,) C45 has a little bit less manganese than CK60 (roughly around 0,10%), together with the low carbon content that C45 naturally has, this results in C45 taking a shallow hardening and therefore Hamon a little better than CK60.

Three: It is easy to forge and forgiving, so I it seems like a good beginners steel. For now, I am not looking for a sword steel that has the toughness of CK60, just a good learning steel that will get a prominent and active Hamon.

And hey, I have even gotten a Hamon on ordinary hobby steel you buy at your DIY-store, If that junk can take a Hamon, anything can! :lechz:

Aeglos:
you are right, Google and the search function on forums has been a long friend, I'll try those first.
When I am a little more skilled with the C45 and C105 I'll post the results. I am making two tsuba's right now, I'll put them up when there about finished.

Thanks for the help I got here, Louis
 
C45 with a good HAMON?

.....One, it is difficult .....to find good steel here. ...... C45 has a little bit less manganese than CK60 (roughly around 0,10%), together with the low carbon content that C45 naturally has, this results in C45 taking a shallow hardening and therefore Hamon a little better than CK60....It is easy to forge and forgiving, so I it seems like a good beginners steel. For now, I am not looking for a sword steel that has the toughness of CK60, just a good learning steel that will get a prominent and active Hamon.

....I have even gotten a Hamon on ordinary hobby steel you buy at your DIY-store, If that junk can take a Hamon, anything can!.....

Good morning!

I am watching your thread for a while, and I would like to let you know my opinion.

My experience is that only high carbon steel produces a good HAMON. This has to do with the fact that martensitic structures can only be generated where carbon is available in considerable amounts. I find it extremely difficult to produce an attractive and durable HAMON on steel with less than 0.6% C, and it is impossible with mild steel. Thus a 'prominent and active HAMON' as you like it will only show on a good blade steel, apart from your skills in producing such a HAMON with the preparation techniques and then in the tempering process itself.

The classical examples for differential hardening/tempering are Japanese blades. These are in general produced from low alloy high-carbon steel with no less than 0.7% of carbon. A small content of manganese is no obstacle for a nicely visible HAMON. Steels with the desired capacities of manganese require a relative high percentage of it.

In my understandig, a 'forgiving' steel means one which is not very sensitive in the fire, a steel which does not burn too easily. It's forging temperature range is somewhat wider. So it is only a question of experience and attention to use C60 or C75, and obtain good results in respect to hardness, resistance, and a nice HAMON.

A remark to Japanese terms: the Japanese do not have a plural form, so it is one KATANA, two KATANA a.s.o. No language in the world has a plural form like TSUBA'S.

Kind regards

Sanjuro

PS: it is not at all complicated to find good steel for blades. Once you have a good source, you can rely on the material and you can work consistantly. Try Achim Wirtz near the Belgian/Netherland border (Achim W. here in the forum)
 
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Thank you for your input Sanjuro, I am very interested in peoples experiences. Please excuse me for my late response, I have been busy lately.

I do not have much experience with the higher carbon steels, but I understand that high(er)-carbon steels are able to form more martensite crystalline structures and thus a good Hamon.
The main reason why I am asking about C45 is that it is cheap and readily available to me.
I have experience in creating a Hamon in low-carbon steels, so I know it is possible.

You are right about the C60 or C75 statement, typical sunobe-steel (which has the final chemistry that will go in the sword) is around 0,6% to 0,7% carbon and VERY LOW alloyed (from "The craft of the Japanese sword"). It is true this kind of steel will produce a good blade and arguably the best Hamon.

From the knowledge I have about the chemistry involved in Japanese swords I would say the closest (commercially produced) steel we have to sunobe-steel is C70W1, C80W1 and (I have not found it anywhere, but I am sure it could be produced) C60W1.

I tried Achim, but he only has C105 and C145, I already bought C105 from a supplier here in the Netherlands.
I know Messenmacherbedarf has C60, but steel like C75 seem impossible to get in decent dimensions (most only sell it 3mm thick).

However, I have found a source for C80U, which will make fine Hamon-/sword steel, but they take a week to respond every time, I am currently waiting for a quote on the shipping costs.

A remark to Japanese terms: the Japanese do not have a plural form, so it is one KATANA, two KATANA a.s.o.
I know, Watashi wa nihon go ga sukoshi wakarimasu. But on a western forum like this where not everyone might understand Japanese language, I prefer to use this incorrect writing because it prevents any misunderstanding about which form I am talking.
No language in the world has a plural form like TSUBA'S
I have to disagree with this, there is; my native language: Dutch :)
Sorry I slipped in some Dutch while writing English.

Thanks for all your input. I anyone has a good source for steel like C75 or has any experience with C45 to share, I would like to know.

Louis
 
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